The photography community is TOXIC (Picture This! Podcast)

The photography community is TOXIC (Picture This! Podcast)

welcome to the picture this photography podcast where we talk about all things photography and today we're gonna be talking about toxic photographers we've all encountered them they make the photography community terrible honey and I are gonna talk about some of these toxic people and how to break those habits and how to make this photography world a little bit better we have some awful quotes too from really really mean people you're so mean they they go back to being funny again yeah they're fun okay first let me thank our sponsor Skillshare Skillshare is an online learning community for creators with more than 25,000 classes in design business and more Premium Membership gives you unlimited access so you can join the classes and communities that are just right for you and your 2019 goals I just watched this awesome class from Sean Dalton on getting paid to be a travel photographer and it had a lot of really good organized useful information in this hour-long class and it's a two-way thing like you can communicate to Sean and get feedback from other members of the community Sean outlined things like how to make money selling stock photography how to find clients in different locations so you can travel around and actually get paid to do it it's really useful skills are super affordable with an annual subscription of less than $10 per month the first 500 people who use the link in the description will get a two month free trial thanks go share we talked to a tech editor at a major tech blog and they cover all sorts of different technology including photography and he told us that photographers photographers are the worst yeah well actually he's not the only person to say that we've talked to other people that have come from other tech fields and I've heard them say that photographers are the worst and so it kind of got us wondering well first of all I felt very validated I was like they are awful I knew it but then I was sad because I love photography and I love the community and I want to know why are they so angry can I say I used to write books for Microsoft press like about Windows 98 and stuff like software people hated super cool and the Linux people are kinder than the photography world Norah's all know what I'm talking about the first reason I think this happens is just general online Adam animosity and there's two parts of this for one most people online are interacting with pseudonyms just fake names and so they know they won't be held accountable as they think they won't be held accountable for the things that they say another part of that is if you've ever just worked online with a co-worker somebody you don't see in person all the time tensions tend to build when you don't talk to people in person little you start to read in emotions and what they're saying that might not actually be there and so you think that they're being sarcastic about something when maybe they're not sometimes they are and maybe it's part of that being anonymous yeah it could be I'll say the first time we went to photo plus a photo conference I was really nervous that people were going to like attack us and just be mean to us because one not a three comments online were super mean but then when we were there in person not a single person was mean every single person ever has been super mind nice and we've met hundreds of people has anybody ever been mean in person no but every day online people are mean right correct people are nicer in person than they are online and photographers interact mostly online and so I think that just builds up I will say another part of it as people have said insulting things in person but you get a feel for their personality and you're like you're just that dude and you take it less personally that can be part of it too yeah and if we there's a bit of advice to take from this it's that if you don't want to be a jerk online imagine that you're talking in person would you say what you're saying to somebody in person or maybe you would phrase it a little bit differently here's an example this person said you white-haired bleep they used a very rude word to describe me there's no way that this bleep is better than a Mavic and that's because I thought another drone was better than this guy's drone I just did a review it was entirely objective yeah but what's your hair and insult have to do with it right he immediately escalated to just personal attacks trying to make me feel bad about my physical appearance and and then swore at me and these are things that would be really easy to avoid like there's also no information in his canta canta as comment he doesn't say oh you made a mistake at one minute 15 seconds this works differently or oh I've had different experiences no there's no information just personal attacks and it's kind of the worst possible way to interact in person or online but I would bet you anything that this person would behave totally different if I met him in person but we still wouldn't like him he's a jerk alright arrogance and appreciation scarcity ooh that's a really fancy way of saying first of all when you first start taking photos you think you're awesome because every picture is leaps and bounds better than the last one like you start to really feel like I got this I'm pretty talented I got it going on and then you see someone else getting a bunch of attention and you think what do they have that I don't have maybe you feel like there's a limited amount of praise that can go around you think your picture is better but someone so picture got 500 likes that's stupid why is that yeah it creates this conflict inside yourself that you feel like you need to resolve in some way and sometimes the way you go about resolving it is tearing down that other person's work yeah I've heard a lot of that like they're just getting likes because they put I don't know this photo filter or the stupid trend or a hot model or you'll find endless ways that people try to invalidate other people's success yeah they use composition and storytelling but I have sharpness here's a comment from DP review this person somebody shared a street photo and this person didn't like the title of their street photo they said shame on you for this preposterous pazham shoe is hogwash deceptively reverse-engineered and an attempt to make the title look appropriate and to make you look perceptive did people like that picture as I was this person was so upset or not in particular I don't know there was no reason for them to get this mad about it now they did some things right like they didn't swear so that's a step in the right direction they also didn't attack the person personally it's basically fancy man swearing the hogwash that's a little rude sir I know are they like from 1800s England or something they're like royalty getting mad but what they really did wrong here is an attempt at mind-reading and this happens all the time we interact with somebody online and we jump to conclusions about what their intentions are and that's impossible to know we cannot read minds so they have they think they figured out what that person is thinking and what that person is thinking is something evil and then they proceeded to tell that person what they're thinking but we can't read other people's minds and you need to acknowledge that this happens to us all the time as youtubers people will see something we we do and they don't agree with it and they will immediately jump to the conclusion that we're doing this because we're sponsored or we're doing this because we're mad at so-and-so and we're trying to get revenge and that's a type of mind-reading and none of us are mind reader's yeah if that's happening to you my professional advice is to just ignore that person because no matter what you do they'll always look for a new reason to invalidate you so this person is saying he doesn't like the title of the picture but if it weren't the title I guarantee he would have had another criticism and as a youtuber that happens all the time people don't like your title or they don't like your thumbnail we've had people criticize us for smiling too much then people criticize me for smiling too little so I mean sometimes these people just they're having a bad day and they're taking it out on you it's not necessarily even about you so Chelsea photography attracts creative types but also technical types yeah there's really two extremes I I see the two extremes and sometimes I wonder if there's much middle ground they're people that are well balanced in both I think it really can attract people that are into tech because it can be very technical they love the cameras they love the advancements that the cameras are making and they find it to be a real challenge just to get a photo that's properly exposed and sharp and around bokeh balls and the corners and like every little technical aspect you can think of they love that challenge and they love thinking about it but you as more of the creative type have you noticed anything about the personalities that tend to be drawn to tech fields um I think that sometimes they can focus more on the tech than the intention of photography in general what tech nerds don't know how to interact with people on the whole you actually know more than IT guy you know more about that the me I've dealt with hundreds and hundreds of tech people personally and they're not good at talking to people I think when they were raised they were probably not socialized properly or they were pushed into a world where it is true though these people don't know how to talk to people they prioritize facts and knowledge over relationships and so we get these people and put them into this world where they're interacting anonymously and they just want to show what they know and they come across as jerks yeah I will say that I get those comments online where people really want to tell you what they know and why you're wrong like I will research a podcast and then some guy in the comments will just tell me why I'm wrong it's like no I I researched it and you didn't but then I meet those people in real life and oftentimes I pick up on what you're talking about where I'm like oh this person's not socially adept it's not necessarily about me they seem like they just explain random things to people that don't want to hear all the time yeah so if you feel like you might be one of those people who doesn't know how to interact with humans we have some tips at the end sure that's me sometimes yeah it's definitely making see oh but I love you for it I think we are a global community – more so than just about any other hobby out there 40% of our audience is in the US which means 60% is from outside the United States and there can be a culture clash there there's always going to be some amount of culture clash actually in the beginning something really difficult for me as an instructor was that a lot of cultures did not like how I conducted myself as a woman or how we interact as husband and wife like if I harass the old on people if that were my wife she'd be in trouble whereas I'm just like oh that doesn't happen in my world but yeah in your pictures you might be also conveying things different culturally like in some cultures I've noticed in our photography groups they can't really photograph themselves with women that aren't family so they just take self-portraits and that can seem a little bit strange in my culture but once you understand why that's happening then you understand why they just have a bunch of photos of themselves or if you're in Europe half your pictures are naked people and then you'll be in the Bible Belt in America and people will be terribly offended because their kid walked past and saw a butt on their computer screen and what could be going on spots but then they'll post pictures of their kid holding like five guns and then the Europeans are like so acknowledge that we're in a global global community people have different standards and you can be you can learn a little bit about other communities and be a little more sensitive to that and if somebody crosses a barrier that you're not comfortable with know that it's not universally bad to show a gun or show a butt or something people heard about a gun but you know what I also think it's because a photography transcends language so it's very easy to merge all of these cultures in one place and all these ideas so sometimes you take some of the things about photography that I love like the fact that it transcends language it's accessible everybody can do it everybody can appreciate a photo and then sometimes that results in a little bit of conflict like everybody's bringing something to the conversation I also think people tend to personally identify with cameras for many people cameras are one of the most expensive things that they will ever buy and so they put a lot of thought into this decision they take a lot of care and then once they buy it they feel like it's part of them and an insult to their camera is an insult to them they're definitely yeah and you're right their own ability their own intelligence even because I've noticed and doing camera reviews that a lot of people that already have the camera come to watch our reviews and I think they're looking for us to validate their purchase which I've kind of done like I just bought a nice coffee maker and then I go online be like other people think this coffee maker is great oh no I didn't really get into it honestly because I'm not that kind of gal but I am saying I can understand why people do that and if they go to a review to kind of look for other people telling them they had a great idea they're their choice and cameras was a good choice and it's the best one and they find out it's not and maybe they made a mistake they can get really angry everyone I think that's why these camera forums crop up and people are just like always defending whatever camera they have yeah so my advice here would be twofold and for one recognized that if somebody criticizes your camera they're not criticizing you know camera is perfect they're all good for different things that you have different strengths and weaknesses and if you are like a reviewer like us or if you're commenting on a piece of gear acknowledge that other people might internalize your comment they might take it personally even though they shouldn't so maybe you can find ways to phrase things that aren't insulting that's something I continue to work on do you though cuz I've heard you say some things where I sometimes you say something and I just think all right well deal with those comments tomorrow she'll say it was not properly socialized you should know that blame my parents we're gonna bring it back around to the socialization here's the comment again from DP review because that's where these people gather get those comments you are so sad this is just somebody who commented about a lens they they had had a good experience with the lens they liked the lens and this is the response to that comment yeah and they really go on you can't argue that you go on to your straumann argument of color science when we all know that color is subjective so there's hyperbole there right he's saying that we all know that color is subjective when not everybody might know that there's also some mind-reading here because he's imagining the motives for this person and why the person is saying these things but he clearly can't read the person's mind you're showing yourself for who you what you really are when you can't even admit that the Nikon is excellent oh that last mine by the way it's hard to take your opinion seriously when you have a bowl cut like a six year old kid that's a true savage whoa why do you have to bring it there bow cuts are very cool so if you're the person writing the comment again they escalate it to a personal attack and that's completely necessary you can just completely leave that out if you're the person reading this then you can say to yourself okay clear this person is emotionally involved in a gear discussion and that's stupid that's ridiculous right you you don't have to get mad even if somebody says something less than flattering about a piece of equipment that makes no sense whatsoever and as soon as you read a comment like that you can say okay this person is no longer in the realm of rationale can I mention something else that I think has to do with a lot of the tension in photography I think the fact that it is subjective can be really frustrating for people that like measurable results in other words if you're coming into photography as a tech person especially you might be a person that likes guidelines and rules and numbers and metrics and suddenly you're thrown into something where there's not necessarily a way to measure how good a picture is some of the best pictures ever taken were a little bit out of focus or had some camera shake or a little motion blur and I could see how that could really frustrate a person looking for order so I think that people try to make their own metrics for success in photography and that's why I hear a lot of things like real photographers shoot film real photographers don't crop real photographers don't edit in Photoshop real photographers I mean does the list go on forever how many times have you heard someone making up these rules for a medium that really does not have any you're just trying to sabotage the photography community because you're stratum evil that's true unhappiness I think a lot of people who get involved in this hobby are doing so because they're at a bad point in their life we know this from personal experience yeah it can be therapeutic we've talked to people who are either themselves or a loved one was going through like a serious or you're even terminal illness people are in deep states of depression they're recovering from an addiction and they're looking for some outlet to put all of their time and energy into and that's great photography can be therapeutic it can it has literally saved lives we've talked to people about this but if you're interacting with somebody who's going through that online they are in a bad place they might feel highly emotional they might be reacting with anger or hostility because their spouse has cancer not because they don't like your haircut I actually have had people come out and apologize to me maybe half a dozen times over my career because they've been extremely aggressive and rude towards me and one guy was just he was having a mental health issue and he had not been taking his medication and he was stalking me on every single social media platform and just saying extremely rude things and he eventually wrote me and just said I was not well and other people have had six-by-six spouses or lost their jobs and they've come back and been like hey that really wasn't appropriate I'm in a very bad place in my life and I'm sorry so absolutely does happen people can just take out their frustrations on anyone around them yeah if you're on the receiving end of this just to remind yourself like if somebody's responding that way it's probably not because of you there's probably something else going on in their life and you don't need to write back like oh you're clearly a crazy person yeah you don't need to respond with hostility because that doesn't make anything better if there's one thing I've learned from taking a ton of criticism as that it usually has almost nothing to do with me I may be triggering a feeling in them or reminding them of an event but you know if someone's especially savage about your photography they probably have something else going on that's not really normal tall poppy syndrome I love this phrase it's Australian and like who told us this phrase I don't remember okay but I like it I think the way it goes is in Australia you kind of harvest the tallest poppies so you cut the flowers off yeah and the metaphor here is that we tend to attack the people that we see as the most successful on Instagram you see this pretty pervasively you see people just mocking the most successful instagramers and their work and as soon as somebody new takes off on whatever the form is you'll see they immediately get attacked it can be pretty shocking because tall poppy syndrome doesn't kick in when you're just beginning and you can even get through the the realm of the middle and above-average without getting attacked too much but as soon as you get into I don't know the top 5% of wherever it is that you're displaying your work you'll start to experience all these attacks out of nowhere I think it depends on the size of the community if you're if you're in an art community in your town or a photography club and suddenly you win an award and other people didn't I guarantee there's gonna be someone there trying to uh I've heard people say put you back in your place that's what those types of people will say and I've definitely seen it in my professional life have been around a lot of photographers a new photographer comes in and is very successful and people don't understand it so they'll say that person doesn't know this or that person isn't doing that correctly seems like that just happens again I don't think it's personal doesn't make it any more fun to deal with though the same people you know who were helpful and supportive when you were beginning will be the opposite but we think everybody has known these people in their lives yeah who only like them when there are stuff below them I just don't deal with those people anymore yeah I used to try to make everyone like me so if I started to get some success and someone would be mean to me a good oh no I hurt their feelings now I you know and I I try to like tend to them because I saw them as injured and now I'm just kind of like if you can't handle me being happy piss off get out of here I will provide one piece of advice and that is to be humble and even self-deprecating I do see a lot of photographers making the mistake of talking themselves up too much constantly bragging about their success their skills their towards about me and this is OK and we do need to do some level of self-promotion but at the same time you will trigger these people who will attack you you're gonna trigger those people no matter what though I grew up in Texas which means we loved American football Wow and guns and every Sunday no doubt some coach or the quarterback or somebody would screw something up and the first thing we did was we just yelled at the screen about what an idiot they were good everybody did this we all yelled at the TV and it's ridiculous because it's not like we're better football players or anything but it was a one-way interaction like they couldn't hear me sure I've heard you yell pretty loud Tony the Internet is different when you you think you're being an armchair quarterback you think you're just criticizing or venting but the people you're talking to can see it this applies to photographers and youtubers and bloggers they can see your mean comments even huge celebrities I've seen say they do not Google themselves or look at their comments because people can be so cruel yeah you're not yelling at your TV and when you do communicate online you should think that the person you're talking about will see it you should assume that and you should assume that they will know who you are and usually they're a human with human feelings yeah and that other humans exist in are as important as you we know the score in photography but we don't know the rule yeah this is our next point what does it mean Tony that sounds very interesting but I'm not sure what you mean by that it's pretty easy to keep track of how successful different photographers are because there are lots of ways to measure that on Instagram you can check the number of followers and I'm not saying that's how we measure success but it kind of is how people measure success people yeah likes on Facebook then a amount of feedback that a particular photo gets in that Facebook group that you're a member of these are ways to measure success how much your photography is selling for in a particular gallery might be another metric mm-hmm but we don't know the rules so if you're playing soccer and one team is winning and assuming everybody's following the same rules it feels okay to us but in photography there are no set rules some people try to make them up in their head like the best photography is the photography that is the sharpest and then somebody comes along and just uses excellent composition and storytelling and nothing as sharp and it can blow that person's mind because they're like wait I was following the rules they're not following the rules why do they have so many points you just need to acknowledge yourself that there are no rules in photography and if you do see somebody who's beating your score and that's bothering you you should treat it as a learning moment you can it's like watching twitch if you play a video games you can be like oh man that guy's really good at this game maybe I can pick up a tip just try to pick up a tip try to learn something about them excuse me I think it's also important to just know yourself and your priorities and what's important to you I mean I hear people get upset if someone has a lot of Instagram followers and they don't think it's worthy they're worthy or I've heard people say they don't care about social media and likes don't matter if you think likes don't matter you know you don't have to get upset with someone else that is getting likes you can just think well what does matter to me is it money is it prestige is it likes or follows is that how much my photos are selling for or is it that I look at my photos and I'm proud or that other photographers I like look at my photos and day admire them what is important to you you don't have to focus on other people's success and then invalidate it or be jealous of it you have to find what's gonna make you happy what are your goals you know what what would make you feel like you were at the top or you were successful and then work towards that if that's like so if you do want more likes and followers on Instagram or Facebook or wherever you're sharing your pictures then yeah you can you can learn from people but if that truly doesn't matter to you you don't have to go around criticizing other people that do like that metric just find your own make your own rules I also think that photography is a sport that you play your whole life but we start at different periods yeah so maybe the other team has 70 points and you have two points but they're in the fourth quarter and you're in the first quarter no more football we're getting little Paxson over here if that makes sense if you're in your first year of photography and somebody else has been doing it for 10 years they're gonna be straight up better than you you'll have to wait until you're and you're ten to really be able to compare yourself with them people also learn at different rates and such – here's a comment that you put in here chels oh yeah you did a really nice video about a Photoshop tip on composite silhouettes and there was this whole debate where people said that it wasn't really photography and he could you couldn't count this picture as photography because you had done a composite and that's kind of relating to what we were saying about the rules like you don't get to make that rule for somebody else if that's your rule don't do it but you kind of don't get to impose what you think is correct on everyone else doing something with no rules doesn't hurt anybody doesn't change anything still multiple images stacked together that the person took you have to do that yeah and that brings us to gatekeeping which is something everybody should avoid that's drawing a line where you say real photographers do this and everybody else is not a photographer I see this all the time all pro photographers do this all photographers do this or don't do this no real photographer has ever done this and our friend Thomas Eden also another YouTube photographer a very nice guy who makes very chill videos about landscape photography recently read some mean common and this was the comment how about using film and being a real photographer no Photoshop no Lightroom this is what separates the true photographer from the half-ass photographer relying on software that's arbitrary right photographers rely on software that's okay there's no rule it's not illegal nobody's gonna come and arrest you it's fine parry well where are people getting these rules and what are you trying to do to photography by putting all these restrictions on it and let people be free and create something interesting and different and I think if you want to be a film photographer or if you want to be a photographer it doesn't edit then find a community where everybody agrees with you but don't put yourself in other communities where people are ok with Lightroom Photoshop and then get mad about it like you made up fake rules and you're getting mad that nobody else is following though nobody else cares about your rules so what are the consequences of all these terrible things happening well I I think there's a lot of consequences people might attack somebody online and want to hurt their feelings and that already isn't cool but what you don't realize is that you're hurting a lot more people than just the person you're attacking because people see these personal attacks and it makes them afraid to share their work online they will be the many people are shy and timid and when they see somebody who's mean about what they think is a perfectly good picture then they won't put up their picture because they're afraid that that's going to happen to them some people do that intentionally so we have a photography community on Facebook it comes with our book so you get our book and then you join this Facebook group and the whole point is you post a picture and you get criticism see see one is very gentle CC 4 is like I've got thick skin just say whatever you feel right so we have this in place and some people just kept going on and being ruthless with everyone and saying everyone was too delicate and if they couldn't handle it get out of photography and I think that some people go into it with that in mind they want to scare other people out of photography they don't want other people doing the crafts because they feel like they need to own it in some way and you know that's just why people learn in different ways and receive criticism in different ways you don't have to do that to people in photography shouldn't be limited to just thick skin to people who can handle rough criticism you're doing a disservice to the entire community when you quiet the voices of the people who might be a little bit shy or a little bit timid we can be gentle if there are people out there who are sensitive we can be sensitive to that you know it's so strange almost every person that I would see defend like really brutal criticism because you got to be thick-skinned had the thinnest skin and could never take any criticism I don't know the psychology of that but that was the way it always happened so here are some do's and don'ts ya do's and don'ts lets start with the don'ts don't type when you're angry if you're having a bad day don't spread it around by making everyone else upset just you know take a breather and relax before you spread your ideas and feelings I type it out and then I sleep on it and I come back to it in the morning and I rarely decide that I knew what was up with me don't swear at people like I can be okay with throwing in an occasional swear word for emphasis but don't say o RA ya unrequested criticism like what is that okay nobody really cares about your opinion if they ask you give it if they don't you can think it and move on I see this on Instagram all the time and it's inappropriate like you don't need to be telling people that they should do something different on Instagram that's not what it's for unless they're asking for that sarcasm not appropriate in any any outside of the use of humor sarcasm is completely inappropriate personal attacks someone's bowl-cut has got nothing to do with how they feel about nikon cameras mind-reading that we talked about don't imagine that you know what the other person is thinking because you don't don't pull rank don't say oh I've been a photographer for 30 years that does not make you more correct yeah that was that's my personal pet peeve I don't like when people do that comes off so annoying and don't hyperbolized if you disagree with somebody you don't need to say oh you were literally destroying photography see that all the time where people just wildly overstate things oh my gosh yeah I feel like such a teacher mom right now do things to do to make the photography community better support people like you you don't have to go into places with photography you don't like and then leave a bunch of negative comments go and support the people that take pictures that you like be supportive ya provide constructive criticism for people if they asked for it there are lots of places where people are dying for some feedback yeah you could be that person use a compliment sandwich say something good they did give the constructive criticism and then something good they did again a lot of time encouragement is a great way to help people grow kind of inspires them to go out and try again instead of crushing their spirits until they hate their craft appreciate different skills and if you don't understand something maybe learn a little bit about it if you see somebody's getting praised for their work but it doesn't make sense to you then study it a little bit more appreciate the subtleties that are making people like them even if you need to learn that people like the photographer and not the photo what makes people like that photographer and want to be supportive of that photographer I'd like to pair up creatives and tech nerds like a buddy cop movie and make them like first they don't like each other but then they realize there's something to the tech side or the creative side yeah they have to make a picture together it's gonna be my next my next YouTube series that flops after all under less I think now is that there's no right or wrong in photography there aren't rules that anybody needs to follow people do things differently and that's okay yeah sometimes I worry with all the criticism that we're missing out on people that want to do something really weird and cool and different but they're too afraid to share it yeah we definitely are and a final thank you to our sponsor Skillshare they have more than 25,000 classes and business design photography and more check out the link in the description the first 500 people to click it will get eight who month free trial where you can check out the amazing classes including the class I talked about earlier making money as a travel photographer Chelsea I'd love to hear what people think in the comments what are the worst things that people do and how do we fix it how do we make the photography community not so toxic so maybe we can welcome in some people who aren't thick-skinned yeah how do we make it like a a nice big cuddly hug where we inspire beautiful pictures instead of a pit of despair and terrible comments and don't forget to subscribe to our channel into the picture of this photography podcast using your favorite podcasting app if you're watching on YouTube you're kind of missing out because this is a great way to just catch up on photography topics while you're driving or editing or working out it's so free see it next week bye

36 thoughts on “The photography community is TOXIC (Picture This! Podcast)”

  1. The stereotype that "Tech" people can't interact well with others is false. Plenty of socially lacking individuals in other groups outside of tech. You had my attention until you started being toxic yourself. ..

  2. So true! and thank you for making this video! Indeed it's a mined territory when you venture in this field and it shouldn't. Why to focus your energy envying someone attacking in any way possible instead of learning something and go out there creating something beautiful in completely beyond me. These negative words can have a devastating effect on both parts, and most certainly towards the one who initiate them by stopping them achieving what the hack they envy, and on the other side, the recipient, even if they have thick skin, they still think about those rude attacks.

  3. First time I saw Tony's content I wrote some insulting things about him. Now, watching this video and his other videos years later, I am sorry and wish I didn't.

  4. I keep on coming back to this video again and again… I live in Germany where toxic people are in the vast majority. The forums here are incredibly aggressive. I recently get attacked very hard for each comment that I am writing. Only a few days ago I had to ask an admin to delete an offensive comment in a German forum. Please don´t get me wrong, I am into photography since 2010, I am not a "noob" and the attacks are always a try to harm me as a person, they never attack my photos. Often toxic photographers have no good pictures or are successfull at all – That is another point nobody seems to talk about, in my opinion that is the reason for their hate.

  5. I just think that giving attention to people that give negative comments fuels their purpose, keep talking photography and ignore the rest. Your podcast are informative and interesting.

  6. I think that there is, or should be one hard and fast rule in photograpy. In real estate, you can't Photoshop out trees or imperfections simply because "they can fix it if they buy it." It's a lie that they'll hopefully discover before they purchase, but can cost people money.

  7. You guys are great !! Keep up the great content ! There is a lot more people that love you than people that don't, that's for sure !!

  8. Another question is also why photographers are trying to sabotage other photographers rep or are so rude to to other colleagues. As an example. Take the temperature between photographers in a media room for a sports event. It’s cut throat. Why the hostilely? If you ask a simple question like “is the line up released?” to the colleague sitting next to you they normally just don’t answer or if you are lucky they answer with something like “get it yourself”. I have also been accused for trying to sell invitations for manufacturer events when I was haggling for the price of equipment that I was trying to buy I told him my last price. During the conversation I found out that he also was a professional I then asked him if he was interested to go to an event.The only thing I did was trying to be friendly as I was asked by the manufacturer to find others to invite. When he said that he already was invited I reminded him that the last day for application was the next day. Next morning I get a phone call from the the manufacturer saying that they had Blacklisted me as I was trying to sell seats to the event.
    I tried to call the guy whom I had the call with the day before but he had already blocked my number. I confronted him calling from another phone and his answer was just. “ I don’t care what you say I am sure what you did” and then he hanged up. I got all sorted out with the manufacturer but Iam still pissed up on how long other colleagues will go in order to sabotage for other photographers.

  9. Photography is definitely one of the most toxic communities out there. I'm not a photographer myself, even though I know a great deal about it (a few cinematographers in my family + the fact that I have background in physics and computer science) and I recently bought a camera to help me with some photo/video work, so decided to catch up and boy was I in for a shock. It's unbelievable really. As the result I spent half a day on getting rid of all youtube suggestions related to photography. Both the general immaturity of a lot of photo youtube channels and the comment sections are just too much.

  10. Technical skills don't cause people to become socially awkward. People who don't interact with others well, gravitate towards tech because it is something to do that doesn't involve those pesky humans.

  11. Soooo True. It's not just Photography websites. Look at politics in social media right now. It's very scary.

  12. Immediately after getting my semi-pro gear I noticed some serious elitism in the photographic community. I quickly found a handful of great folks (you two included). I'm an illustrator/Graphic artist so photography is really fun so far. I can't wait to get a few years under my belt. Thanks Guys!

  13. OMG, after 10 minutes i realized there is a dog on Tony's thigh. I thought he waved his hand to support what Chelsea was talking about.

  14. It's not just the photography world where these insults fly. The political world is far worse. I'm sure you're right, the anonymity of the internet acts like a catalyst to bring out the nastiness of the human heart. That nastiness though has to be there in the first place. It's much more informative about the person making the comment than the one receiving it.

  15. Enjoying this like I do of so many of your videos. Let me pick up on one of your points the "No rules in Photography". I would say I am an "Advanced Amateur" and have been doing serious photography for the better part of 45 years. In the 'real world' I am a professional biologist and occasionally do photography for my work. But my passion as an advanced amateur is nature photography. I live in North America and there are 'rules' that have been setup to define the parameters which are generally different from those in Europe, specifically the "No Hand of Man" in an image. Those rules have been developed so that the images we see actually reflect the natural world. I have been to photo salons where so much as an obviously moved piece of grass disqualified a entry. That is a bit sever, but I generally try to follow this philosophy. In Europe seeing an image of a bird on a fence post is still considered an acceptable natural image, while it is generally not in North America. I will be honest, as a person from North America, when I see images that have obvious enhancements (unnatural sharpness, cloned out areas, obvious enhanced contrast) and they win those contests it gets to my sense of fair play. Photography generally has become the wild west where anything goes, but I do still think that it is necessary to include some boundaries otherwise we serious begin to wonder if the images we see truly exist and express a possible existence in nature and are not a fantasy created out of a computer.

  16. My first job in photography I worked for a large portrait and wedding studio that had 5 different yearbook contracts and I did all their event photos and managed the darkroom. It was a husband and wife team and the wife was the more talented of the two but neither were overly technical. The husband shot some of the events that I couldn't shoot due too overlaps, when I batch processed all the like film rolls many of his exposures were wildly off and as much as 4-8 stops overexposed and many so thin I couldn't get an image out of. One day he complained to his wife and production staff that I had to be doing something to his film (I heard this second hand from a production gal there) because my shots were consistently well exposed and he couldn't understand why his weren't. I guess that he didn't realize that you can't develop a 24 or 36 exp. roll of Tri-X film for individual frames to be dead on and many frames to be nearly transparent and others being opaque. I never said anything to him, it was too ridiculous.

  17. Not just recently and online. Nastiness from other photographers goes back (for me anyway) to the late 1980s. Petty jealousy. I had one guy who would call models I've worked with to trash talk about me, hoping the models would stop working with me.

    Most were the types I'd call "GWCs" who thought they were professional just because they bought a camera that wasn't already loaded with film.

  18. Actually i think that the white haired guy (dont know his name, sorry) seems like he is very arrogant as a person. I dont wanna attack him personally but i get this vibe off of him

  19. I have a theory that camera equipment and arguing about it is pulling the worst out of people. To say that only toxic people go to photography or at least comment about it is just an easy assumption and not really verified in any way. You're not going to get polite comments on war videos or nationality no matter which kind of person you are. Just like when you're driving a car and you're mad all the time. Studies show that, and you probably know that from your personal experience even though you probably think you're not the one. And now to my theory and I really think it's correct. I think that every single person see some sort of beauty and value in what they see in front of them and in most cases it is not the same for the another person. You can never explain it to another person and even if you find someone similar to you he's not exactly the same. And you will go from this world never succeeded to explain the gravity and specificity you felt when you saw (it) with your eyes. And with camera you want to recreate that and you're so pissed off because nobody sees what you see. And how the hell not to going to get frustrated. It's inside of you and to use the corny phrase, nobody will understand it. Your photos will be judged buy some general aesthetic rules and not on the most important thing ever in your life and that is send nudes.

  20. I used to rent an upstairs apartment in the Photography Community but my landlord evicted me. ( She got mad at me for calling "Full Frame" a small format! )
    My advice to the Northrup couple is: do what you are doing; you obviously love photography! Ignore all the negative wanabees ( laugh all the way to the bank! ).
    Oh, and by the way, Full Frame IS a small format 🙂

  21. What the heck? Film? Lightroom is the new darkroom but without toxic chemicals and sacrificing space for it. And when I press the shutter button, whether or not it looks right to me is all that matters.

  22. One of the best so far. I have been suffering from people trying to bring me down since I can remember.
    Tony….Your awesome..Chelsea …make sure he doesn't drop the ball. lol Piet H. Aerotech

  23. When someone asks for a good wildlife lens and are saying "I really want to get into more wildlife shots".

    Then people suggest 500/600 f4s because only real photographers use those and anything variable f5-6.3 is trash. Ya need that separate background bokah!

    The response above just turns my stomach. Who has money for those lenses when they are beginning? Even if your an x year pro, 12k lenses are expensive..

  24. This w tire video is exactly how most photography discords are.


    Do the Northrups have a discord?

  25. When I was at college in first year, everyone was great, well the odd one was a bit of an arse. Come second and the end of second year 70% of these great people turned into arrogant egotistical wankers. Honestly the change was incredible. Yip, loads of wanks into photography.

  26. OK, now I know your a couple lol. You both are so awesome. Need to improve myself though because I am just starting in photography. Thank you.💜💜💜

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